Talking about Sarah’s faults, not allowed….
It all started with this Blog Entry – Rosh HaShana – Day One – Family Dysfunction I posted this to a moderated Group where all posts are reviewed by the Hosts are either approved or declined. It was declined, which was all fine by me – we cannot all like the same things, right. However, I had posted another similar post earlier, which was accepted by the same Host; Rosh HaShana – The Akedah – More Family Dysfunction – it seemed a bit hypocritical to me, especially in view of the REASON the Host gave to why she had declined my later post.
“I respect your right to free speech and free choice, hut I dont want to offend anyone. I dont necessarily agree with all you wrote, and know that it is offensive to more orthodox/ chariedi Jews. Lets try to keep things NON controversial, ok? Shana Tova, and gmar chatima tova”
“To which I replied – through a post – ” Why did you approve the initial post here, but declined the sequel both are “controversial”, both would not fit an Orthodox/Charedi point of view. If you decline one you have, in all fairness to decline the other two – if nothing else for the fact that they are “a pair”.
Why do you cater to an Orthodox Charedi point of view? Is this an Orthodox Charedi Group? – if so, why are you not covering your head/hair in your avatar? Isn’t that offensive to the Orthodox/Charedi? “
“FIRST< it is unapprpriate for you to make this “personal”, questioning my personal observance IN PUBLIC.. u can ask me privately, but In Torah we do NOT believe in embarassing others in public, nor do we point fingers and say Lashon Hara [evil tongue against fellow jews IN PUBLIC], or Motzei Shem Ra [lies abotu others, to make a bad name] its just not our way. I told u, its not whether i agree or not, and no its not only for orthodox, but it is NOT ok to talk BAD About my fellow Jew, WHETHER HE IS BAD OR NOT… this is NOT that forum. MY GOAL is to bring Jews and ALL humans TOGETHER, not to CONTINUE to DIVIDE THEM. get it? if you point out criticism and flaws of the forefathers, u do not INCREASE respect, u increase ENMITY. ok? there are places to do that, but not in my organization. i want LOVE and GOOD feelings, the GOOD side of ALL PEOPLE>>. Jew and non jew alike! ok? hope i made myself clear. and i am happy to have u contintue contributing POSITIVE sentiments, things to make us think, grow and feel CLOSER to others, not BAD or NEgative. ok? thanks”
“Who’s taking things in public? – The Group is moderated, you are the only Host – so you would be the only one to read my post – did I expect you to publish my post? No. So, no I have not embarrassed you in public. And yes, since you were the one bringing up the Orthodox/Charedi as a reason why my post would be offensive, then I think my question about what they might feel about your avatar is justified.
Who’s lying? I am not. The flaws and the faults of the Forefathers/Foremothers are there for everyone to see. As I said, from Avraham to Yosef and from Sarah to Dinah. It needs addressing, and it needs addressing by Jews. Especially by Jews who, like me were themselves raised in highly dysfunctional families. I suppose this interpretation of what is lashon hara is the reason why so many Jews suffer in silence in families of sexual, spiritual, emotional and physical abuse, or why not more are being done for the agunot in terms of community pressure and public acknowledgement.
If we are to read and expound on Torah in a manner that make our forefathers into larger than life icons who never did anything untoward, no wonder the Goyim think we believe we are better than they are! How’s that for truth if we make them out to be saints in public and then in private look at their flaws and either snicker at them or find hope and strength in the fact that they were just as human and as f-d up as we – which was my point with my drash on Sarah?
The majority of Orthodox/Charedi Jewry don’t consider anyone but their closest relative Jewish. Like you said – Chabad only collect for their own. While your ambition is admirable, and I agree with you that there really shouldn’t be any division, I don’t think it’s ever going to happen.
You don’t have to worry, I am leaving the group, and I ask you to delete any posts I have made to it – wouldn’t want to upset the Charedi (who in my mind are the ones creating the division in Jewry, by demanding that we all become Charedi and claiming that everyone not Charedi is not Jewish. No better than Xian Fundamentalists in my opinion, in that regard. But that’s just my opinion.
Be at peace in the Holy Days and may your sealing be good.”
“Don’t tell the truth, don’t share your opinion about people – or should we call them Main Characters in Torah….because then you are lying, using evil speak and embarrassing them in public…”
I agree that we should avoid embarrassing living people in public, especially if there is no need, if the issue can be solved some other way – but that one is not allowed to expound on Torah in a manner that shows that indeed the Forefathers and Foremothers were human being just like you and me, with flaws, faults, character defects and dysfunctions, that is simply ridiculous.
People in Torah were some times up shit creek with themselves. That needs to be said, or what use is it to anyone to try and emulate their good sides, if we cannot identify with them on a deeper level, that of shame, fear, suffering and anger?
None whatsoever.
I don’t claim to know anything about Jewish beliefs, so please understand that my comment is meant to be generic, not specific.
In my experience, the refusal by some to discuss religious doctrine with fellow believers is a big reason why people seem to be moving away from organized religion. If we can’t discuss with our leaders and fellow believers WHY certain doctrines are in place or WHY we’re supposed to accept what we’re taught as being the truth, then how can we honestly be expected to want to continue being a part of that particular religion? Does that make sense?
Shadow Bear, I think you were treated unfairly. I think anyone claiming to be a religious leader of any sort – whether in a church, or an internet forum – should be confident and strong enough in their beliefs to WANT to discuss the questions others have. Personally, I only know of one religion that actively encourages people to question, and that is the Buddhism of Nichiren Daishonin. I don’t want to appear disrespectful of your beliefs and I sincerely hope I haven’t offended you. I know that YOU encourage people to ask questions in their search for greater understanding, and truthfully, I wish there were more people like you. It would go a long, long way towards removing the unfair stigma the Jewish people have had placed on them for how many hundreds of years, now, that’s for sure.